SPEAKER_03 0:13

Hello and welcome to Empower Your Metapods, where we share stories, strategies, and support to help women thrive during midlife and beyond. It's James here with my fabulous co-coach Julie. And today we've got a very special guest with us. We've got Neve Gurley. Neave is a breast cancer survivor, an advocate whose journey is nothing short of inspiring. So Neve is a certified nutrition coach. She's an inspiring advocate for women's health, especially for those navigating the challenges of life after 50. Following her own diagnosis of breast cancer 12 years ago, Neve transformed her life and dedicated herself to educating and empowering women to take charge of their health. She's written an ebook, and we'll give you a link to that in the show notes: Five Lifestyle Strategies to Reduce Your Risk of Breast Cancer, a guide that blends her personal journey with practical, evidence-based tips for reducing cancer risk and living vibrantly. With a focus on approachable, sustainable lifestyle changes, Neve helps women rediscover their energy, confidence, and joy while prioritizing their well-being. Join us as we dive into her empowering journey with actionable strategies. Neve, welcome to the pod. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Hi, James. Thank you very much for the introduction. Hi, Julie.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Hi, Neve. Good to see you. Always good to see you. So let's dive right in because we've got a lot of material to cover, and uh we want to make sure to get the most information we can to our listeners. So if you don't mind, um let's start by just talking about your story, if you don't mind sharing that, kind of from diagnosis to where you are today, some of your more challenging moments maybe during the journey and and how you navigated them.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Absolutely. So I um, as James said, it was about 12 years ago, and I came home from work one evening and there was a report on the radio about uh a celebrity who had just announced they had breast cancer, and we all know that we should check regularly and be aware of what was going on. I thought, as I heard, listened to the radio, I thought, I haven't checked in a while. So I did a I was in my bedroom, so I did a uh check myself there and then and I found a lump and your stomach just sinks, you can't, you know, that that can't be right. And I I kept checking and it was still there. So the the next morning I was on to my doctor, and then within a week I was in to see the um the the breast check clinic, had my mammogram, my ultrasound, and then I saw the the the doctor straight after. And obviously they have to wait for tests and things, but um he very he's I said to him, you know, do you think there's something there? And he went, Yeah, I think there's something there. And it was good to just have that awareness straight away. And then I was into the whole, you know, I had the chemotherapy, I had the radiation, I had surgery, and then I went on to the hormonal treatment after that. So uh yeah, delighted to say I'm I'm here. I'd love to be sharing the the story, but I did feel after I was after I was diagnosed, and I had I have been I believe that you you know you you come across or you get what you focus on. That's what happens to you in life. And so I always made a point of not thinking about cancer because if I didn't think about it, it wouldn't happen to me. So when I was diagnosed, I had very little information about it. I didn't know what you know, I just knew these scare stories that we hear about cancer, and I went to find out, and the first thing I found out was that one in seven women will get breast cancer during their lifetime. And I thought, oh why was I the one? You know, what are the other six doing differently that they didn't get breast cancer? And that's what I wanted to find out. What could I have done differently? What you know, what could I do going forward? Unfortunately, a lot of all cancers, it's it's down to bad luck. Um, but there are things that we can do that will reduce our risk or that will improve the outcome if we are unlucky enough to get a diagnosis. And that's what I wanted to find out about, and that's what I like to share now, to you know, so we can all try and avoid it if we can.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

So many questions spring to mind, Neve, as you're just telling that story. And the first one, I suppose, is kind of like an observation stroke question. You listen to something on the radio and heard a celebrity talking about breast cancer, and that's what made you made you check. And so I suppose, in one way, um that element of luck that you you know, there is an element of chance whether you get cancer or not, there's also an element of luck whether something prompts you, it seems, to to do the to do the check. And I wonder if you could just expand a little bit on what had stopped you from checking up until that point. Was it just absent-mindedness or was there something else going on? And if you could just tell us a little bit more about the what it's like to actually find out, because as you said, your stomach sank. But I wonder if you could just talk, speak into that a little bit more for us.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Okay, so I wouldn't I mean if you'd asked me, I'd have said, well, yeah, I do. I know I'm supposed to check once a month, but it's just you don't, you know, you just you do forget, and I know because I've said this to other women, um, I don't know, Julie, have you know, if this has been your experience, but you don't always remember to do it, and you sort of need to do it at the same time each month as well, and it's remembering to do that. So as so yeah, partly luck that I heard it on the on the radio, because the national screening programs start age 50, and I was 47 at the time. So if I hadn't found that myself, you know, then I would have been another three years waiting. I'd like to think I would have checked before then. So one of the things that I do now is um I have a reminder that I put out on my social media, my Instagram once a month, beginning of the month, reminder, do your check, do it, do it when you're in the shower, or you know, have some time that reminds you when to do it or do it now. And that also prompts me the fact that I have a reminder to put that on my social media, it reminds me to do it. And you know, to be honest, it's still not every month, but it's more than it was. And of course, I have regular checkups with the doctor to to check that as well. But it was one of my things that I I was annoyed that the um the screening program doesn't start until age 50. Like, why does because I know other women have been um have found lumps themselves before that. As regards to how I felt at the time, I you know, I I felt really unlucky initially. Um I couldn't I couldn't believe it, and I couldn't I couldn't say the word, I couldn't say the word on cancer when I was in with the doctor and he was you know explaining what was going to happen and there was a cancer nurse in there as well and nobody used the word cancer. I remember that. Um my husband was with me because you're really you're not taking anything in at that stage, you're just you know, you're taking in snippets here and there. So, like some of the things I remember hearing, particularly from nurses, as one of the nurses said, you know, many women just write off the next year of their lives. This is when I was diagnosed, and I thought, well, no, I'm gonna get through this in the next six weeks or so and get back to work, and nobody will ever be any the wiser. Um, and then when I was going in for surgery, um, one of the nurses in the theatre, I was in the theater waiting for the surgery, and the nurse was standing beside me and she said, I've been where you are, and that was that's that really struck me because I thought, well, here's the woman, she's come through it. Not only has she come through it and she's back at work, she's just living a normal life again. I can do that, and those little things that do stick with you give you such hope and the strength to sort of carry on. But you have your low days, you have your bad times, of course, you do, um, and it's just really about getting through the next thing.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Yeah, well what were some of the the more powerful um self-supporting things that you did for yourself during that time?

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Well, one of the things that I did that was in hindsight was the complete opposite of supporting, was I rested a lot, particularly when I was going through the chemotherapy. I rested a lot, and that is actually the wrong thing to do, I feel. Obviously, if you're having you know, if you're having treatment, sometimes you don't feel it, but when you can, you need to keep moving, you need to keep exercising because that's what keeps your body healthy and keeps you the the um you know the ability to to stay strong and get through it. The biggest thing I would say I did was that I lost 35 pounds in weight um while I was on hormonal treatment. So it was difficult, but I felt it was crucial, um, as one of the main risks of breast cancer is being overweight.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

So could you speak into the timelines a little bit, please, Nate? People who are listening who won't be aware of the journey that a breast cancer patient goes through. So from diagnosis to treatment to all clear, what are the steps? But also I wonder if you could just talk into a little bit as well. When you do the test, what are you what what told you that it was a cancerous lump or suggested it might be rather than something else? Or did you just have to wait for the diagnosis from from the doctor and testing to know the difference?

SPEAKER_00 10:41

When I went in that day, so I found a lump. I remember 28th of February, can remember the course to six in the evening. I remembered that was that's when I found it. One of those moments that I will always remember. So within the week, then I was in the hospital having the I was in the breast clinic having the the checks. So uh the first part is to go in, you go in for a mammogram. And I'm sitting in there having and you're sitting and waiting with women who are at different stages. Some of them are like you, they're they're waiting, some of them are are coming back for a checkup, and nobody really talks because everybody's in that uneasy stage. And I just at this stage I'd started reading things and I thought, well, one in ten lumps that you find, so a lot of the lump nine of the lump 90% of the lumps that women find in their breast are not cancerous. Um they're black milk ducts ducts or you know, some fibrous tissue or something like that. But everything has to be checked. So I'm sitting in the waiting room thinking, well, there's a 90% chance this is enough like so. That's okay. Then I went in for my mammogram. Then I was called for an ultrasound, which I wasn't necessarily expecting. I don't know if that's routine, I don't know if that was because of what was showing up on the mammogram. But I had the ultrasound and I remember the um the technician who did the ultrasound, the doctor, she kept talking. I thought I I had questions. I wanted to say, like, can you see something or something? No, she there just wasn't a break. She just talked and talked and talked and talked. I couldn't get a question in. I think that was intentional. And then I went in to see the con did I go in and see the consultant? Yeah. So then he had looked at the results and it was he who said to me, Yeah, I think there's something there. But they the the doctor who did the ultrasound also took the biopsy. And the biopsy has to be sent off for testing, and that takes I think it was a week, two weeks at the most, but something like that. So he said, You have to come back in uh next Monday, bring somebody with you. And I said, Well, my husband's away at the moment, should I get him to come back and come in with me? Yeah. So I knew walking out of there what I was what I was coming back to. So then when I came back, then you discuss a treatment plan. And you know, there was would I have a lumpectomy or would I have a mastectomy? And I remember saying on one stage, well, if I have surgery, and then the consultant said, No, you will be having surgery. So then they check for um they check your lymph nodes. So um my lymph nodes, they took all the lymph nodes out of my arm and they had to be sent off for checking then. So it was and it depends on how that sort of gives them an idea of whether it's beginning to spread or not. And so that was the first surgery was having the lymph nodes taken out. Then the second surgery then is the mastectomy. And then you can have so this was sort of by now we're into April. So when I had the mastectomy uh in April, and after that, effectively I was cancer free. But then you go on to the well, I went on to the uh chemotherapy at that stage. Now people have at different stages, you might have your chemotherapy first and then your surgery. So I had the surgery and then the chemotherapy for 18 weeks and then um radiotherapy uh for another five weeks. Then I went on to hormonal treatment for 10 years after that. So that has finished now, thank God. And that was tamoxifen. And I know a lot of a lot of women struggle on that because it's the tamoxifen effectively that puts you into a medical menopause because the tamoxifen, and there are other um hormonal drugs as well. Uh, it basically it effectively blocks your body absorbing the tamoxifen or the um estrogen, it doesn't stop it producing the estrogen, but it just blocks where it goes, so then you get all the effects straight away of menopause. And I wasn't warned about that, I wasn't expecting, I didn't even know what was going on initially, but um, yeah, so that's my journey.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

Yeah, so so start to end then when you finish the radiotherapy, are we looking at what about six to eight months?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

So February to yeah, I say from uh treatment from so found at the end of February, and I'd say I think it was November I finished the radiotherapy, but then I had 10 years of tamoxifen. So that was last year I finished that.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Wow. So now we're talking about, you know, you said one in seven women are going to, you know, are likely to be diagnosed. Um can you can you talk about like some of the risks and early detection and some and maybe even go into some of the common myths around this? Because I know there's so much fear-mongering in the media and people having preventive double mastectomies and you know telling you to use this product, don't use that product. I mean, there's just like in every industry, really, that's it's uh it's been it's been marketed instead of talked about, really.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Yeah. Um there are there are there are a number of myths, of course, around uh breast cancer. One of them being that you know, once you find a lump, it's definitely cancerous, and it's not 90% of the time, it's it's something else, but it does have to be checked out. Um mammograms, so women avoid going to mammograms because there is a myth that it can spread the cancer if it's there, and there is no evidence to suggest that. That another myth is that you know, wearing an underwired bra um or using an antiperspirant that has aluminium in it, that these cause breast cancer. Now I heard these years and years ago, so they've been around for a while, but again, there's no evidence to to support those. Uh one of the big ones that surprise me is that um you're only at risk if you have a family history of breast cancer. So if you have the you may have the brackagene, you may not have the bracagene, but there's you know there there are other risks as well. But actually only 15% of breast cancers are related to your family history. So 85% of breast cancers are actually, we can impact the risk by our lifestyle factors. Um, and that's you know, that that gives us such control, and they're all easy things we can do, and it's just get into the habit of you know eating well and um healthy weight, things like that, um can reduce can reduce the risk. As regards the actual risks, I would say the most important thing to do is is to know your body. The the screening and checking yourself is the most important. But knowing your body so that if anything's changed, that you recognize it straight away. So if there's a change in the shape of the breast and the look of the nipple, if you have a rash, if you're checking regularly and then that happens, then you're gonna see it more, you're gonna see it sooner. If you're called for screening, if you're you know, if you're if you're not happy at all, you so the national screening starts at age 50. You can ask your own GP anytime to do it to do a breast check, and they will they will check it. And um in the ebook or you'll find it online as well, anywhere, all the the breast, all the cancer websites have it is to how to do the the check yourself because you have to go right in under the collarbone, you have to check under your arm. So, yeah, no, know your body, recognize the it might not stop you getting it, but it will you'll have a better chance of catching it early and having a more positive outcome.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Um another sorry, the the age 50 thing for screening, Neve. I know you're based in in Ireland. Is that a an international thing for screening? Is that the in in most countries is it's 50 when screening starts, is it?

SPEAKER_00 19:35

It seems to be, yeah. It's certainly that's what it is in the UK. I'm fairly sure that's what it is in the US as well. Um, I checked a couple of other European countries, so that seems to be, and I'm sure that's based on you know statistics and you know the the most benefit for what the the country can can afford, but yeah, it's it's at 50. I don't know if that'll come down, but I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

Okay, what kind of things do you actually coach people on then now? As because you said that you transitioned this awakened in in you a need to talk about breast cancer and help people and coach people through the journey. What is it that you actually offer people who come to you or or people who may be looking to check up on whether they have breast cancer or not?

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Well, coaching on helping them to be as as helpful as possible. So women I would deal mostly with women who are over 50 or over 55. Breast cancer risk increases with age. So the older you get, the more likely you are to get breast cancer. And much of the information, of course, is valid for all cancers. Um, you know, we're we're always being told that eventually, you know, you have a 50-50 chance at some stage in your life of getting cancer. Um weight loss is one of the is the biggest risk factor really for breast cancer. And I know I was overweight when I was diagnosed, and that certainly spurred me on to lose the 35, 36 pounds that I lost. And doctors will say nobody is as motivated as somebody who's had a cancer diagnosis. But even to do that, you know, to do that to reduce your risk, if you can get to a healthy weight, um, you know, you're you're definitely reducing your risk of breast cancer. But one of the things is how do you know if you're a healthy weight? And this is where I would like to suggest the string test. So I have my ball of string. So without worrying about numbers or measurements. Or numbers on the scale or anything, I'm going to show you uh a quick and easy way to uh know whether or not you're a healthy weight. So I have cut this piece of string that is equal to my height. I'm gonna fold it over in half. So that's basically that's now half my height. That should go around my waist and meet or overlap. If it does, I'm a healthy weight. If it doesn't, I could do it losing a few pounds. Now it doesn't quite meet, to be honest. So I'm blaming Christmas for that, but I could do it losing a few weight. So it's a good but it's a good quick, easy indicator to know whether or not you're you know at a healthy weight or how close you are or how much um progress you're making if you're trying to lose weight, and particularly with it being around the middle. Um, and I know Julie you covered in this in your in well, I know you covered it in the podcast last week, and Julie, you mentioned that uh visceral fat is um what's the word? No, that it's metabolically active. So and one that it produces its own hormones, and one of those hormones is estrogen. So if you carry too much weight around the middle, your body is producing too much estrogen, and that is one of the factors that can you know increase your risk of breast cancer.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Yeah. Um so just to go over the steps again, because people who are watching this on YouTube will have a visual indication of what on there. But but for people who are listening, so you're taking a piece of string, you're measuring out to the height of your body, yeah, and then you flip it in half. So you've got a piece of string that's half the length of your body. Then step three is pop it around your middle, and hopefully it's gonna meet or overlap.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

So basically it's based on the fact that your your waist to height ratio, what that should be for a healthy weight. So I have a piece of string here that um is 65 inches long, five foot five, because that's what I am. So then I fold it over, so now it's 32 and a half inches. Am I right? Is that half sixty-five? So that should go around my waist and meet. And if it does, then I'm a healthy weight. If it overlaps, or you know, if it doesn't quite meet the two ends of the string and my waist is effectively more than half my height, then yeah, I could do it losing a few pounds just to get to that that healthy weight. Because a healthy weight is the top risk for breast cancer, is being overweight.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Okay. What what are some of the other risks that that people can do something about? Um because I know sometimes we think, oh, it just it's fate or whatever, but I know eighty the statistics are around 80% of diseases can be prevented or at least reduced risk by lifestyle factors.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Yeah, alcohol, I'm afraid, is um is one of the factors. And it's one of those a good old friend, right? Yeah, yeah. And I know we've done a podcast on this recently, which had some great information on it on how to you know how to reduce your your alcohol intake. And that's the thing. I don't you know, you're you're reducing your risk if you don't if you don't drink. So we all have a a certain risk. So um a 50-year-old woman has an 11% chance of getting breast cancer. If she if she doesn't drink at all. If you have a couple of drinks a week, or if that woman has a couple of drinks a week, she's increasing her risk to about 13%. If she has a couple of drinks most days of the week and goes over her limit, it's 15%. So it's not that you're massively increasing your risk, you're increasing it by a bit. So generally we get the advice from doctors, you know, have have a few glasses of wine if you want, but don't overdo it. Don't drink every night, don't you know, and I've I've heard my own uh oncologist um, you know, talk about this uh when she's done talks. Again, it just throws me a little bit to talk about the fact that I had an oncologist and that's why I hesitated there. But I've heard her say, you know, to have a drink when you go out, you know, with the family celebration or you're out with friends, have a glass of wine then, but don't be having it at home every night as habitual. You know, have it when you you know you're gonna enjoy it, but don't let it become a habit. It's these one or two glasses of wine most nights, they're the they're the risk factors. Um, but it's just like you because you hear things like your risk increases by 40%. Your risk might increase by 40%, but that doesn't mean you have a 40% chance of getting breast cancer. It means your risk is 11%. If you increase it by that percentage, it's now 13%. So I I just think it's important to keep that in in context because I like a glass of wine and you know, but I wouldn't do it every night.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah, and that's it's an interesting thing about statistics, right? They can be manipulated to to create a message that you know may or may not be as accurate as what people think exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Yeah. From a um takeaway point of view, then, uh Neive, what kind of practical advice can you give listeners to lifestyle changes that can be made maybe post-diagnosis? What did you do? What did you change? How did they influence your recovery and well-being?

SPEAKER_00 28:09

I lost the weight because I know that was was critical. I stopped resting so much. Now I would have been reasonably active beforehand, but then when I went in through the diagnosis and treatment, I know I know I rested too much, so I went back to being a bit more active. I certainly became more aware of um how I live, what I do, um you know, the things that you would talk about in your podcast every week, about eating healthy, you know, staying at a healthy weight, plenty of fruits and vegetables, plenty of greens, not too many, not too many ultra-processed foods, but you know, it's like everything else, everything in you know, moderation. Um so yeah, staying healthy and moving, and but I have to say I think the big one is keeping an eye on yourself, screening, noticing, yeah, knowing your body and checking the regular checks.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

So, would you say that's the one big takeaway that people should take with them then is to know your body and and do your checks on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Know your body and be at a healthy weight. Those are the two things that are gonna have the biggest impact. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. That can be that can be challenging, certainly through menopause, as our bodies are changing as well. So probably makes it even more critical to keep up with what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Absolutely, it is it is difficult. And I know that because effectively I was in menopause. I was in medical menopause when I lost the weight. I was also on the hormonal treatment, which does not help and has other um effects that are, you know, you you're you know, you start getting pains in your joints and things, and I don't know, some symptoms are the treatment, some symptoms are probably menopause, who knows? But you know, the pains in the joints and the the lack of energy, yeah. So it it is difficult, but I know for a fact it's doable.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

So what can people do to get better support, Neve, after a de diagnosis? You you to spoke into the the shock that you felt yourself when your own diagnosis came. What kind of support is there out there for for people? Um where could people lean into if if they had that shocking diagnosis themselves?

SPEAKER_00 30:41

First of all, stay off Google. Don't look any because whatever goes on Google, they have to tell you the worst case scenario. So you don't want to see that. There's a lot of um there's a lot of good, reliable uh websites out there that are government-backed, ever evidence-based that will give you the information you need when you need it. People react differently. So um I was diagnosed at the same time as a friend of mine, and we actually had surgery on the same day, but we took different paths about it. I I didn't want to talk about it, I struggled with saying the word cancer, I didn't just didn't want it to be part of me. That took time and it's changed, and now I'm getting easier about talking about it, but I wanted to tell people if we say one person today, I'm delighted. But I was diagnosed at the same time as a friend, and she went the opposite way, and she had a blog going, and she went on, she did so much work for charity and raised funds, and she's like here we are the 12 years later, and she has a choir going that's a group, a community of women who've had breast cancer, and they do this um dip in the nip every year, where they all go to the beach and they strip off and they do their dip and collect a lot of money. So different approaches, it depends how you feel and how you like I want to share it now. Initially, I didn't I didn't want to talk about it at all, so I just you know don't ask me about it, I don't want to talk about it, and I didn't like the idea of people saying, you know, you're you're battling or you're looking great, or you know, just just talk to me like I'm normal, you know.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Battle is such an emotional or emotive term when it comes to um a diagnosis of cancer, I always feel because it implies that if you pass away that you didn't fight hard enough, and I think that's a really um difficult thing to put on somebody because it's not because somebody didn't fight hard enough that they didn't win this this mythical mythical battle. So it's a very I always find it a really emotive word that seems to be banded around a lot around around around not any cancer, not just not just breast cancer.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Yeah, you don't feel like you're battling, you just feel like you're getting through the day, and tomorrow you'll get through that day, and the next day you'll get through, yeah. So it's it's just getting there.

SPEAKER_03 33:14

Yeah. Okay, so let's just round things off then. So Neam, if somebody wants to get in touch with you and they want your support, what is the best way for them to do that, please?

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Um, my Instagram, I think you're gonna share the link um in the post. So I'm Neve Gorleine Nutrition on Instagram and there's links there. There's a link to the ebook. There's a link to if anybody wants to book and have a quick chat with me or message me through Instagram. They can also um get me at Neve at wellnessmatters.ie. I'm happy to um talk to anybody about this, so yeah, please do.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Yeah, that's and please check the links to make sure you get the spelling correct.

SPEAKER_03 34:05

Yes. Oh, yeah. Indeed. Yeah. Um, so a couple of things then just to round off. If you've been affected by some of the things that we've talked about in this podcast, we know it's very emotive. Uh, please reach out either to to Neve, myself, Julie. We can point you in the direction of any support that you might need. Um, take actionable steps for your own health, obviously. Schedule a mammogram, learn more about breast cancer awareness. As Neve said, two really big, big things that you can do is first of all, check, know your body. Second of all, is look into some kind of weight management if you feel you're overweight. Neve gave that amazing tip there about trying to get a relatively accurate but somewhat easy to do measurement of whether you might want to look into weight loss or not, which is take a piece of string, measure your height, fold the string in half, wrap it around your middle, and let's see if the ends meet or if they overlap, because that's what you're looking for. But um, I think that's about it. Unless Neave, Julie, have you got anything else you'd like to add before we head off into the podcast ether?

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Thank you very much. Not me. We could talk about this all day, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah, yeah, no, and thank you very much. I'm delighted to have the opportunity and um to be guest on your podcast, which I enjoy, I have to say. Look forward to that every week.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

Fabulous. Well, thank you everybody for joining us today. Thank you, Neve, for joining us today and coming and sharing your story, being so open and honest about it. I think it's really, really valuable, and we value you for giving you uh your time over to us and to our listeners today. So thanks a lot for that. So it's coaches James and Julie from Fabulous Beyond 40. Reminding you to stay strong and stay fabulous, and we'll see you next time. Take care.